Drift data logging?

[chip-3door]

If there are particular circumstances in terms of change of rate of change in wheel speed that lead to the back end letting go and result in a spin, then noticing those circumstances are starting to occur may lead to a situation where the spin can be avoided.

More talent, would of course, achieve the same thing.

Originally Posted by Stavros

it only would in the wrong situation for that car and setup and driver, not just full stop, so there no way that can be integrated in to anything apart from a better driver.

honestly, i dont think its even worth thinking about from an interests point of view TBH

[charlay]

could come up with some sort of active yaw control drift spec, that'd reduce the chances of a spin, but however it would be unsporting and a bit gay. be interesting and very cool technically

[driftpromotion]

[quote=chip-3door;717015]LMAO @ you trying to tell me what will or wont help me when you dont even know what Im trying to work out.

I want to know the relative speeds of the driven and undriven wheels at different angles for different cars, to see the percentage slip on the rear wheels. quote]

The problem is (besides the physical method of measurement or placement of sensors) the sheer amount of variables that you will have to cope with.

Considering the amount of variables the value of any measurements would be negligible.

You could compare this to a "stall sensor" on an aircraft I suppose.. "PULL UP, PULL UP, PULL UP" or in the case of a drifter "YOU ARE ABOUT TO SPIN"..

Even so, put an experienced drifter in ANY car, and he will feel where the "edge of control" is quite easily.

[iamben]

so basically you started a thread about nothing specific but get annoyed when people ask what your trying to acheive.

Thats like saying "hey guys watch me do this backflip, im not gonna do one, i just wanted to know if anyone else has"

so all in all, pointless thread, 3 minutes of my life wasted when i could be looking for more jailbait pics. thanks very much.

[chip-3door]

Originally Posted by iamben

so basically you started a thread about nothing specific but get annoyed when people ask what your trying to acheive.

I dont mind people asking me what I want to achieve at all, so ive no idea why you would say something so stupid.
The thing I commented on (by saying it made me laugh, not saying that it annoyed me) was when someone told me

Measuring the speed of the wheels isn't going to do you much good.

Actual vehicle speed would be more useful.

[chip-3door]

Originally Posted by driftpromotion

The problem is (besides the physical method of measurement or placement of sensors) the sheer amount of variables that you will have to cope with.

Considering the amount of variables the value of any measurements would be negligible.

You could compare this to a "stall sensor" on an aircraft I suppose.. "PULL UP, PULL UP, PULL UP" or in the case of a drifter "YOU ARE ABOUT TO SPIN"..

Even so, put an experienced drifter in ANY car, and he will feel where the "edge of control" is quite easily.

The number of variables is relatively small in my pesonal opinion, but then im used to writing control software that deals with up to half a million variables simultaneously, so I guess it depends on what you personally class as being a lot.
There are certainly a lot more than the ones I mentioned in this thread though, but im just after the basics initially to look for patterns, not to actually start building anything yet.

[Mattyboi]

Originally Posted by chip-3door

If there are particular circumstances in terms of change of rate of change in wheel speed that lead to the back end letting go and result in a spin, then noticing those circumstances are starting to occur may lead to a situation where the spin can be avoided.

More talent, would of course, achieve the same thing.

If you know how to use a two way properly you can achive the same thing, backwards entrys are do-able if you can use a two way and a wand like a hero.

I think of all the varriables the 2ways actions and when and where its used would be your down fall. It would be all most impossible to mapp its actions and then when you factor in wand, your fighting a loosing battle.

Also if people ran electronic aids, or even advanced electronic diffs, they`d be banned right away.

[Stavros]

I spoke to someone else about this earlier just in passing conversation, as to me the variables are just totally and uttery huge to make it at all effective.

And their comment about it was spot bollock on.

"There is one way an electronic device that could be invented that could do that, the terminator"

That is the special thing about drifting, due to its nature its about the only thing thats nigh on impossible to improve your handling via electronic aids. You can either drive, or you cant.

And using anything at all like that would totally defy the point, remove the fun factor, and turn it in to some internet forum willy waving competition like all other modified car stuff, rather than how it is now, where you prove your skills or STFU.

[Car Media]

Doesnt the racelogic traction control already do this with variating levels of slip alowed???? Im sure they would be the guys to ask they do all that dataloging stuff too

[chip-3door]

Originally Posted by Stavros

I spoke to someone else about this earlier just in passing conversation, as to me the variables are just totally and uttery huge to make it at all effective.

And their comment about it was spot bollock on.

"There is one way an electronic device that could be invented that could do that, the terminator"

That is the special thing about drifting, due to its nature its about the only thing thats nigh on impossible to improve your handling via electronic aids. You can either drive, or you cant.

And using anything at all like that would totally defy the point, remove the fun factor, and turn it in to some internet forum willy waving competition like all other modified car stuff, rather than how it is now, where you prove your skills or STFU.

you are overestimating the complexity of drifting if you really believe that, it would be perfectly possible to build a computer that controlled all the controls totally and drifted perfectly ever time, human beings arent as advanced as you are giving them credit for.

Would be a dull business being in one as a "driver" when you were basically just a passenger though.

And the same "it ruins it" applies to all electronic aids when driving to a certain extent anyway IMHO, ABS or TC or LC etc, all detract from the skill needed.

Doesnt stop it being an interesting problem to solve from an electronics point of view though, either to solve totally or to just add aids that allow you to learn more easily.

[chip-3door]

Originally Posted by Car Media

Doesnt the racelogic traction control already do this with variating levels of slip alowed???? Im sure they would be the guys to ask they do all that dataloging stuff too

Im not aware of a product specifically aimed at drifting, but yes im sure racelogic could easily do so if they wished.

[Keefe]

Originally Posted by chip-3door

you are overestimating the complexity of drifting if you really believe that, it would be perfectly possible to build a computer that controlled all the controls totally and drifted perfectly ever time, human beings arent as advanced as you are giving them credit for.

Would be a dull business being in one as a "driver" when you were basically just a passenger though.

And the same "it ruins it" applies to all electronic aids when driving to a certain extent anyway IMHO, ABS or TC or LC etc, all detract from the skill needed.

Doesnt stop it being an interesting problem to solve from an electronics point of view though, either to solve totally or to just add aids that allow you to learn more easily.

I don't think he's overestimating the complexity of drifting, just saying there are soo many variables in performing a single drift that working out a way to control it all would not be possible realistically.

Why would you want to build a computer to make people drift perfect everytime? That would be a monumental waste of time.

You're right, other electronic aids do ruin the raw skill required to drive properly, which is why a certain amount of people choose to remove them, so chances are if you built your computer dickwave5000 nobody would bother fitting it barr some rich kid who wanted to be a pro out in the states y0 off daddies monies rather than skill.

As far as i'm aware the problem of spinning out isn't one to be solved, the whole point of drifting is to try get as close to that point as possible before wrestling it back hero-spec and getting all the chicks...

[mittomatto]

just to point out - any kind of electronic aids are banned in drifting, full stop.

you could invest millions of pounds on a "drift computer" but you couldnt programme it to work within the realms of chance, which is really what drifting is. The human brain might not be able to function as quickly on a mathmatical level, however, a computer cannot match reaction speed when it comes to feel.

I believe the drift box will give you GPS speed and slip angle, but then that only applies to your location on the planet and not the particular corner you might be going at... ie. drift box says 50* but the angle against the apex of the corner might be greater - backwards entry style...

besides all this, you have a cossie, you will fail at drifting anyway

[chip-3door]

Mittomatto, its not something I would use myself anyway, I dont even like ABS etc, I prefer to do the driving myself than rely on electronics.

As I said before, mainly it just interests me, and Ive no immediate plans to build anything anyway.

Cheers for the input folks.

[Stavros]

I dont want to incur the usual 10 page Chip arguing wrath, and I know its only being talked about for interests sake, but wont ever happen IMO. Simple as.

And you must be seriously underestimating whats involved to drift good if you think its that easy. Get decent at drifting and then think about it again. Thats why I said its not even worth thinking about for interests sake.

Even Racelogic traction control etc has been proven to be slower than a very GOOD driver at launching, god help a similar thing for drifting.

[chip-3door]

Stav, the racelogic you are on about is pretty budget stuff for launching and relatively crude, still great in terms of consistancy though, if you look at the systems that have been used over the years in formula 1, you can see that even the best drivers in the world can easily be beaten by a computer, so launching is a bad example for you to be using to try and get your point across.

I understand what people are getting at about a computer doing the whole job though, although perfectly possible its certainly not something I would have the resources to do and neither do I have any intention to try, I was thinking purely in terms of much more basic stuff here.

[Nelo]

Don't see why everybody is getting all defensive and shirty? I tend to like reading these chip threads. Do you think you're all going to be replaced by a mass produced army of Drift Terminators or something? (If we did, i'd like for them to be called after their creator, the CHIP-9000 or something similar.)

While I do agree about the ability of a device or aid in helping you to drift overall being a bad thing, i'd still be pretty interested in the figures and measurements myself just from a Technical viewpoint. Beats reading about how to weld a diff or something else thats discussed to death here.

Although as mentioned about 10 times already there are a lot of variables to consider. However if you got a base car to install it on that was well setup and had a reasonable driver just for datalogging, you could gather some figures... how useful they will be to somebody is another thing entirely.

[suprmek1]

It could be masively useful. One main reason I'd like to see it done would be an ultra realistic Drift car simulator also the formulars and simulator can be used to develop beter products suspension, areo, engine, you name it the possibilitys with this infomation are massive

[chip-3door]

Toyota have got a simulator that if loaded with the right parameters would be awesome for it, as unlike normal simulators you get the g forces so you can actually FEEL whats happening as well, sadly the cost of doing so would make it not worth them doing it though I suspect. Would be cool though.

[Mattyboi]

Originally Posted by suprmek1

also the formulars and simulator can be used to develop beter products suspension, areo, engine, you name it the possibilitys with this infomation are massive

Thats not strictly true alex. You don`t need info like that to develop engine and aero parts for drifting, not even suspension parts really. Even for tyres its still hit and miss, even F1 and motoGP tyres have an amount of guess work involved because not calculations can 100% tell you what a tyre is going to do.