VAG ignition coil conversion project! - Have your vote!

TnF · Mar 18, 2015

Greetings Driftworks members. It has been a long time since i last posted here but i'm happy to announce a small project i've been working on since so many people were interested about it.
In the last 6 months i've been active in the "CA18DET Motor Enthusiasts" facebook group where i posted initially my work on the successful conversion of my 200SX CA18DET to VAG (VW group) ignition coils.
More specifically to the now famous "Audi R8" ignition coils which are one of the limited good ignition system upgrades you can perform on a CA18DET engine. While i will include the details below, to keep this short, I basically developed a complete PnP (Plug and Play) ignition conversion system of which i am willing to do a batch manufacture for other enthusiasts.
For this reason i am conducting a poll to see how many people are interested so i can proceed with the project by calculating the final cost per item so that we can ideally go ahead and make this a reality (kinda like a group buy).

But first, here is my original post. It covers most of the details and some of my personal background, and I definitely recommend that you first have a read so you can understand what this is all about:

Hello CA18DET lovers. Since my VAG coil conversion I had many people contacting me via the group, facebook and youtube in regards to this conversion. However due to the fact that I am currently unemployed it has been difficult to provide support. During this time I’ve been in talk with Jackson Michael which is the process of building a reliable 500hp+ CA18DET engine, where I’ve come up with the idea of creating a plug and play conversion harness and accessories so that will allow VW group coils to be installed with minimal user intervention. WARNING THERE IS A HUGE POST FOLLOWING! Please read if you have the time!

Before I go into details, let me introduce myself a little better to anyone that does not know me. I am a recent Cypriot MEng Mechanical Engineering graduate from University of Bath (one of the top 5 UK universities in Mechanical Engineering). I managed to graduate with first-class honours, due to the exceptional results I achieved in my dissertation based on High Performance Composite Car wheels (similar to the concept wheels of the BMW i8). In addition on my 3rd year I was part of the Formula Student (SAE) team (TBR14) of my university, being responsible with developing the E85 conversion and fuel + injection systems. Since my graduation I currently live off savings looking for full-time work as a mechanical engineer. Despite my efforts completion is fierce, since due to the high unemployment rates employers favour candidates with specific work experience and British background. After my graduation last summer I went back to Cyprus for a small break since graduate applications were closed, but during that time I did the VAG coil conversion on my 200SX. I’ve been always been a hands-on person but taking a look at my CV here will give you a better understanding: http://tinyurl.com/mez3h2a

Moving on, my proposal is to manufacture and supply a plug and play conversion kit to all those who are interested. In order to make this project feasible and effective we’ll need to decide where most of the interest is, so that we can both increase the quality and reduce cost of the products. In other words more people interested >> lower cost per kit. For this I will make a poll afterwards since facebook does not allow me to put photos and a poll in the same post. This will be alike a kickstarter project, no commitment until enough interest is present. If this happens it will follow up as a group buy (or something in that terms) where I will work this a batch manufacture. There is no way I can do this on per customer basis since the costs will be too high.
So starting with most important of all:

1) CA18DET VAG ignition coil PnP harness: This is exactly what it says. A plug and play harness that will allow any VAG coil with built-in ignitor to work on the CA18DET engine. This is as simple as taking out the old coil packs and ignitor, plug in the new coils, connect the new harness and you are up and running!
There is only one of such a harness in the market to my knowledge sold by Z-power, and it is a modified factory VW ignition harness with standard plastic insulation. They sell it at 150eur (108gbp, 163usd) without postage, and I believe it is made to order (or probably a small quantity stocked). I can definitely do this a lot cheaper, even going with the same path of modifying a VW harness or better make my own. In the photos you will see my prototype, at the test and completed phases; a stock ca18det ignition harness modified. Not the prettiest but I couldn’t source NISSAN plugs cheaply so I went that way and used a different plug design (plus mine were cracked). My recommended specifications are:

- Harness made to the proper size for the CA18DET engine
- Proper copper lower gauge wires (i.e. thicker wires) to provide maximum current handling
- Better insulation, perhaps Tesa tape (like I used in my harness) or braided inserts
- Elimination of the stock ignitor without running extra cables though the Z-power harness, saves weights too, because race car, bro.
- Additional engine to chassis ground to help increase the quality of the ignition signal
- Use of genuine connectors

Initial test fit prototype:

Close up:

Final harness prototype(note i'm using a bespoke main connector but production version will use NISSAN type connector for PnP application):

Click to expand...

TnF · Mar 18, 2015

Continued:

2) Option 1 – Genuine NGK VAG R8 Cop’s[/B]: After lots of research this was my final VAG coil selection choice. These are the higher performing VW group ignition coils available to the market right now. They provide the highest performance and reliability and they are a common upgrade to stock and modified TFSI engines. This is due to the higher potential difference created at the spark tip (voltage) and overall energy provided to the spark. This is mainly due to the following three reasons:

i) Much higher secondary coil impedance
ii)Newer and more efficient MOSFET’s, and
iii)COP design minimises energy losses as the spark doesn’t have to travel though a spark wire.

I’ve been in talk with an NGK engineer and there are a couple of other tricks employed in the design to increase efficiency. They are capable of producing up to 45KV which is higher than any other consumer coil in the industry. Even though I wasn’t able to obtain a datasheet due to proprietary information I did perform lots of testing even before I tried them on my engine. If I had an oscilloscope I would be able to measure the spark energy to compare since there are a couple of externally mounted coils out there that have high ignition energies, but the fact is this: No matter how much energy your coil can dump to the spark plug, unless you induce a plasma arc across the spark plug electrodes you will have a MISFIRE! The potential difference required to establish an arc is mainly controlled by a function of the gap size, gas medium, pressure and temperature. Since you cannot modify the last three, the only way to reduce this requirement is by either decreasing the spark gap or increase the voltage across it. Decreasing the gap is an acceptable solution but after it gets to the point where the initial flame core will either die out due to quenching, or reduce the flame front propagation speed excessively which in simple terms will “retard” the ignition timing and allow more time for knocking to take place. Therefore after a point you’ll need to upgrade the ignition system. By having a higher spark gap you improve the speed and quality of the combustion, allowing a safer higher BMEP which result in higher torque and therefore power output of the engine.

Now why go with a VAG coil when you can have a Bosch motorsports, a LS2 truck, splitfire or an okada coil? In regards to the CA18DET engine:

- Generally cheaper overall than most options
- No need for dwell adjustment
- Uses latest electronics and technology (COP which Nissan employed for a reason)
- Easy to source or find replacements
- No need for spark plug wires (which deteriorate over time more easily)
- Lower dwell timings allow for higher peak rpm possible (if you want to go crazy) and higher off time reduces cooling required leading to higher life assuming the same cooling conditions
- Smart and not stupidly “smart” like some LS2 and other coils which in an over dwell or overheat condition will fire by themselves at the wrong time sending your rod out to Mc’donalds.
- Generally lighter overall setup, remember because race car, bro
- They are red!
- You can brag about having R8 coils on your engine!

Actually these coils are not only used on the R8 engine, but as well on other VW group high performance engines like the ones in: all Lamborghini Gallardos, Audi TT TFSI, S8, S6, S5, S4, RS6, Q7, some Porsches etc. The previous version, 115R got its reputation because it has been proven to work on a 300HP per cylinder TFSI engine. So one less thing to think about your dream 900hp CA18DET engine. Not sure about the performance yet? Check out my test videos here:

Normal testing, 2ms dwell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51g0orQOlmE

20000rpm testing!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnMVFiaz7Uk

First run (smooth idle lool): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwtRI_evFXI

Note it worked perfectly even at 6ms dwell and at 2ms. I didn’t try other values back then, but it barely warmed up even when tested at 20000rpm (yeah imagine how far the CA18DET rods will be thrown out at this speed!). Of course performance will be degraded a bit at under-bonnet temperatures due to the effectiveness reduction of the internal MOSFET/IGBT at these temperatures. However new generation MOSFETs that would fit easily into this package achieve 100A draws over 80oC so I wouldn’t stay awake about that.

And because people will start asking about the coil pack cover, the VAG coils come in 3 sizes. This is the longest one. The shortest can fit with only about a 10mm increase in height, but remember that these coils are designed to be held open on top for cooling. Of course they will be working normally but you will reduce their lifespan. Also the shorter coils will have lower performance both in spark voltage and energy as the height of coil houses the laminated ferrite based core which increases the magnetic flux. The reduction in voltage will be due to the fact that the R8 coils have the higher secondary coil resistance. Also some of these coils have a different pinout, but of course this can be remedied easily since I can easily swap the pins during the harness manufacture. So if you decide you want to use a coil with different pinout I will be able to adjust before sending you out the harness.

My idea here is that if you are going with a VAG coil conversion you will be using VAG coils that you need to buy. Therefore if enough people are interested I can have a huge discount by buying directly from the main distributor or factory in bulk. Either way I will be shipping the harnesses so shipping cost will be minimised, and plus it will be more convenient for you. It is a WIN-WIN situation (not sure where is the win for me here but anyways )

Pictured, "R8" NGK coilpack:

Click to expand...

TnF · Mar 18, 2015

Continued:

3) Option 2 – VAG coil ignition driver module: Sadly there is a small problem with the whole setup. The latest generation VAG coils have a much lower signal input impedance which will not work properly with some ignition management systems. What happens is that the coils will refuse to fire. This is due to the higher current signal draw required to activate the coils. There is also a tighter margin of base voltage required for a logic zero. This is the voltage gap of signal ground to actual ground. It is simply inherent in the design of the electronics inside the coil. However the stock NISSAN ECU WILL WORK PERFECTLY FINE. This means stock ecu, chipped, ecu, daughterboard, etc it will work as long it uses the specific transistors used by NISSAN inside the ecu. The ECU’s that are affected are Greddy E-manage (both blue and ultimate), Megasquirt 1-3, possibly VEMS, but not limited to. There are three solutions to this problem:

i) If using a piggyback and not a standalone with this this issue you can bypass the ignition control to the stock ecu. This will however leave you without external ignition control.
ii) Use of an external ignitor. I won’t go into details but this will require a different harness, or different pinout. Plus you are left with a heavy ignitor..because racecar again..
iii) Use an external driver module

Here I am going to discuss option iii. When I made the conversion I came up with both this problem and a solution to it. I use an E-manage ultimate in my car where I do both the tuning, boost control, and datalogging. To keep the cost low they used an SMD driver inside the board which has a much lower current handling capability so the coils would refuse to fire. While it took me some time to figure this out, I did came up quickly with the solution. A trip to the electronics store and a couple of hours soldering later I had my own ignition driver. As you can see in the photos it is not even soldered on a pcb, and housed inside a hair wax box but it worked and still works perfectly. I made 20 top speed runs back to back tuning after with this unit and never failed me or the coils ONCE!

After I came back to UK I had an upcoming (2nd interview) with Triumph (the motorcycle manufacturer) for a design engineering position. In order to show my capabilities I decided to expand on this solution and design a ready for production version of it. I spend the whole weekend learning all about pcb design along the software (it’s good that I have lots of previous CAD experience), and designed an even better and more optimised version of this module. I got really positive feedback that I am able to step out of comfort zone and produce such solutions in such a limited timeframe.

Since then I am in slow development of a newer version of this driver module, mainly due to the fact with small changes in the component selection I can have a circuit that can be installed and function as an igniter module for any electronic ignition system, while the current version can function only as a VAG coil driver module (for any engine management system). This is a product that can be useful even outside the CA18DET community as it will function with many ignition systems. There is only a competitor to my knowledge, QuadSpark which retails at 100gbp (140eur, 150usd). However this is a traditional ignition driver module, not a specific VAG coil driver but I think it could be rewired to function like it. Also it uses some old Bosch ignition driver IC’s if I remember well, which will have downgraded performance compared to the IGBT’s I am planning to use.

To sum up I am recommending two versions to decide for:

a) A VAG specific ignition driver module: Cheap, can be made very compact

b) A multifunction ignition drive module that can work with all/most EFI systems, ignition modules, allow distributor 12V<>5V conversions, and maybe more. This will be of course more expensive, and larger in size and a little heavier.

As for final costs it can vary extremely depending on the demand. PCB manufacture is expensive but gets a lot cheaper and better for a design if you need to manufacture lots of them. Else a couple of them you can always manufacture them on a breadboard.

Option 2a - Initial working prototype development process:

Option 2a - 3D CAD concept:

Option 2a - Concept board drawing:

A small note: “TechnoRage Developments” is the name of my “virtual company”. Also the mascot is myself I got from a photo when I was about 6 years old and I was messing with a wrench and my tricycle… Don’t register them as trademarks before me, I spend half a day and three people coming up with the name and designing the logos
grin emoticon

Lastly I am making this for the community, not to make profit. What I will gain? A good work experience where I can put on CV. And if there is a sustainable market I could maybe make my own business for a start and stop “begging” for work. I have an appointment with a business advisor this Tuesday so if there is good interest I think it will go well. I hope I didn’t waste much of your time, it took me many hours to prepare and write.

Extra links:
Final year dissertation if you are interested: http://tinyurl.com/lmuxtvh

Final year project poster if you don’t want to read through 75 pages: http://tinyurl.com/l22zswf
Click to expand...

Since the above post I have talked with a business advisor, and he was extremely happy with my plan and my financial awareness, so i guess it shouldn't be too difficult for me to pull this off. We now have over 15 people interested in the PnP CA18DET VAG coil conversion harness.
What i'm asking at this stage is for people which are genuinely interested in this, to go ahead and cast their vote to this poll. There is no commitment at this stage! If you want one of these products to come to life and in the end at your hands, please give your vote. The more people are interested, the lower price will be per item. Simple as that.
You can vote at this link here!!!: VAG coil products poll for CA18det Motor Lovers - Poll
You can select multiple choices depending on your needs. There is also an option for other Nissan engines (SR, RB, KA) since i had people suggesting it, and while i don't have a prototype for that it will be easy to make.

If you want to join the facebook group you can do it here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/113199723523/
If you have problems joining (because it is a closed group to prevent spammers) or want to contact me personally pm me here or at my facebook here:
https://www.facebook.com/ken.gnk

If you have any suggestions or questions please leave them here! Thanks to all!

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For moderators: If you believe i've posted this in the wrong category please let me know so we can move it! Thanks!
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NORFY · Mar 18, 2015

running the the vag TT 1.8t coil packs on my sr. it was a very easy conversion and worthwhile if you want something cheaper than splitfires.

i didnt need to use a driver, just bypassed the nissan ignitior btw.

they sit much nicer on a sr20, you can almost get the plug cover back on in its factory place. they were too long on a ca though and in all honesty i would be afraid of water getting down the plug holes causing issues.

if youre going to produce these kits then its worth doing ca and sr as theres not a great deal of difference and the sr is more common here

TnF · Mar 18, 2015

NORFY said: ↑

running the the vag TT 1.8t coil packs on my sr. it was a very easy conversion and worthwhile if you want something cheaper than splitfires.

i didnt need to use a driver, just bypassed the nissan ignitior btw.
Click to expand...

yes i know, if you read the post i do bypass the stock ignito. The driver module is only need with E-Manage/Megasquirt or any other ecu which don't have powerful enough drivers for these low input impedance coils. Stock ecu/nistune/chipped/daughterboard is fine.

they sit much nicer on a sr20, you can almost get the plug cover back on in its factory place. they were too long on a ca though and in all honesty i would be afraid of water getting down the plug holes causing issues.
Click to expand...

yes i know this, but you can get shorter vag coils which only raise the cover by about 10mm. However these are the best ones you can use and i do mention the details in the "article" above I wouldn't worry much about water since i run them like this the whole winter when i was back in Cyprus with no problems. This is because this design insulates the electrode and grounds the body directly to the spark plug hex head. Haven't tested it but it would be a lot more difficult than the stock ignition coils to short them out. Plus you can always go and make a cover if you want to, but still you would need to run an o-ring all around the cover for proper sealing with the CA18

if youre going to produce these kits then its worth doing ca and sr as theres not a great deal of difference and the sr is more common here

Click to expand...

That's why i give that option in my poll, because it will be easy to make and because i had people suggest it. I wonder is there anyone else producing ready made conversion harnesses for SR other than Z-power?

TnF · Mar 31, 2015

To everyone following this thread i am happy to announce that i now take pre-orders for the CA18DET VAG ignition conversion harness! Details here:
http://www.driftworks.com/forum/eng...8det-vag-ignition-harness-limited-places.html

TnF · Apr 1, 2015

Small update: Haltech ecu's are confirmed to support driving of these coils directly too which means you only require the PnP harness for the conversion.

TnF · Apr 19, 2015

Another update! I have reached 10 orders and have now started ordering the materials needed for manufacturing of the harnesses. Some more places available:

Tommorris256 · Oct 24, 2015

Hi, what is the pro's and cons of this upgrade to an RB25DET SPEC1? im guessing it can be done? what is involved to do it etc? regards, Tom.

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