No fwd converted to rear wheel drive!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dori Edd]

Id imagine that caterham types always gonna be a pig to drift sitting soooo far back in them, transitions would be back breaking! Plus anyone see that Dax Rush in Time Attack get it sideways? Very little angle but he was seriously close to losing it. We've got a locost at college, and even with the caterham quick rack in its got weaksauce lock.

[Chikushou]

One of the biggest problems with organized racing is people and there disregard to the rule books. I am always hearing some sort of moaning from one person or another about how they spent all this money doing such and such to their car and then found out after the car was done that the modifications they had made were not legal in regards to the rule book. Making a phone call or asking a random person associated with a racing organization is never going to give you the right to have an illegal mod. GET THE RULE BOOK.

[Andrew Strang]

Scrutineer you make some valid points but why does japan and the usa allow fwd converted cars and not the uk?

[Stavros]

It doesnt make a lot of sense to me, certainly nothing to do with it being fair or not anyhow IMO.

But rules are rules, and hopefully they can be changed when its thought about. Hell, if FWD cars can be run as 4WD in WRC, i dont see why they cant as RWD in drifting.

But TBH if your dads never competed in drift competitions before its pretty unlikley he will be good enough for a EDC licence straight away anyhow, its a lot harder than people think.

Tell him to go for Eurodrift or UKD1, he can still do them, and he more more chance of actually getting a licence with them.

[hashiriya]

true. MR and FF cars are allowed in japanese D1, so it would be interesting to see if someone could come up with the goods in a front wheel drive car too.

[mazdachris]

As far as I know, rules which prevent FWD => RWD converted cars from running, concern themselves primaraly with the transmission tunnel/chassis of the car. In order to carry out such a conversion, a new transmission tunnel and significant parts for the rear end need to be cut and welded in place, significantly modifying the chassis which other rules state must be basically standard other than a rollcage and some bracing/strengthening allowed. There are probably a lot of reasons for this but can be summed up in three ways: safety, competativeness and cost.

Obviously any car which has had the floor pan cut to pieces then welded together will need a lot finer scrutineering than a car running a standard chassis. Even then, it's hard to predict how a car like that might react in an accident.

Competativeness and cost sort of go hand in hand. Ignoring space framing for the moment, but imagine a situation where it emerged that, for instance, a Ford Mondeo running Cosworth running gear is so good for drifting it gives a massive edge over everything else. Unlikely I know, but it's a possibility right? Suddenly Mondeo driver has a big advantage over everyone else. In order for everyone else to be able to compete, everyone has to build a car to a similar spec. Suddenly all those people who had been running well enough with moderately tuned (read moderately cheap) s-bodies that can more or less be built in a week or so, have to spend months cutting, welding, and developing. The sport becomes less accessible for those who do it simply for fun, people lose interest and it becomes more about money than ability.

[Baba]

Simple.... Get an EDC license in a RWD car first. It might take a quite a few years and by then the rules may change. You still have a VERY long way to go

[Stavros]

Originally Posted by mazdachris

Competativeness and cost sort of go hand in hand. Ignoring space framing for the moment, but imagine a situation where it emerged that, for instance, a Ford Mondeo running Cosworth running gear is so good for drifting it gives a massive edge over everything else. Unlikely I know, but it's a possibility right? Suddenly Mondeo driver has a big advantage over everyone else. In order for everyone else to be able to compete, everyone has to build a car to a similar spec. Suddenly all those people who had been running well enough with moderately tuned (read moderately cheap) s-bodies that can more or less be built in a week or so, have to spend months cutting, welding, and developing. The sport becomes less accessible for those who do it simply for fun, people lose interest and it becomes more about money than ability.

That makes no sense TBH, as it would be a LOT cheaper to get a ready RWD car to that spec (whatever it is) than it would getting a FWD.
Unless you can think of something i cant?

And RWD mondeos/focus's/fiestas/escorts/etc all end up using Cosworth underpinnings anyhow, so wont be at any advantage at all, and any mods done such as Focus WRC style rear suspension, is easier to do to an actual Cosworth (or any other RWD for that matter) than a FWD car.

Saying its a money issue is silly considering the incredible specs some cars are already, and TBH, you cant buy success, its one of the few sports where talent is almost totally the deciding factor.

[Mattyboi]

Mr Strang, face facts. The rules is there and they aren`t gonna change it for you because your dad wants a pop at EDC. He won`t be good enough anyways whatever you think so a lower champs will be better suited and they alow FF converted cars.

Also, all this "my dad" shit makes you sound about 12

[mazdachris]

Well the Mondeo thing was a hypothetical example. In much the same way that at the moment, it's fair to say that S-bodies are used because of their handling dynamics. But if you could make a car which handled better than that, then everyone would be forced to raise their game to compete. The actaul car isn't important, it's more the case that the idea is to limit the amount of modifications that people need to o in order to be competative. Sure, some cars are built on massive budgets (I'm not thinking D1GP, because their cars are all crazy) but that's entirely down to the owners and not really 100% necessary to compete. In fact, I'm sure that Phil's S14a was built on a comparatively small budget but is well enough set up to compete.

The point being, whether or not it's likely, the rule is concerned with chassis modifications which might either turn out to be unsafe, or give a competitor an unfair edge over people running unmodified chassis.

[Stavros]

My point is its cheaper to do that to a car thats already RWD, and there no rule against that, so nobody in their right mind would do it to a FWD chassis to "cheat".

Theres no witchcraft involved, anything that makes S-bodys good can be done to any other car, and thats against no rules.

And regarding budget, "money spent well" is a HUGE issue in car modifying, as some are happy to just throw money at big name tuners and big names brands without knowing why, some just do whats needed, and end up with a car just as good for about a third of the money.

[mazdachris]

Anything that you can do within the rules to give yourself an edge isn't "cheating" as such, but it forces everyone else to follow suit. I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it how I've always understood it: that when you start welding together bits of different cars in an effort to give yourself an edge (that must be the intention, as otherwise there would be absolutely no point as you say) then the cost and development time goes up. If they're successful and create a car which can do something that other cars can't, who knows why, it's just speculative, then it kind of forces everyone else to explore the same paths. Rules which catagorically rule this out stop anyone from even trying it so everyone can start on a nice even playing field without spending too much money or getting all confused about what is and isn't allowed.

As I say though, you'd have to be a special kind of moron to build something specifically for a competition without reading up on the rules, without actually having any experience of the sport, and when there are plenty of examples of great, well developed cars which are self explanatory and could/should be used as inspiration when considering building anything. Building something just for fun is one thing, but what this guy has done is the equivalent of me nailing a few shopping trolleys together and then bemoaning the fact I can't enter it into Formula 1. i.e. absolutely retarded.

[Baba]

Bloody hell guys your posts are getting longer and longer

[Stavros]

Its all besides the point tho.

If you wanted to enter a S13 with F1 carbon double wishbone suspension, 500degrees of steering lock, and other crazy shit im too lazy to make up, you can.

But you cant do that to a FWD shell, or even put shit Sierra semi trailing arm crap on like the Focus blatantly will have.

So if its for fareness reasons, it makes no sense (but i dont think its for them reasons at all)

[mazdachris]

Ah well, I can see we're not going to agree. Will have to wait and see if someone can give the official reason as to why it's banned.

[Andrew Strang]

Originally Posted by Mattyboi

Mr Strang, face facts. The rules is there and they aren`t gonna change it for you because your dad wants a pop at EDC. He won`t be good enough anyways whatever you think so a lower champs will be better suited and they alow FF converted cars.

Also, all this "my dad" shit makes you sound about 12

I understand what your saying mate and he isnt good enough at the moment but it would be nice if he ever did get good enough that he wudnt need to build a new car to compete. End of the day rules are rules and if we need to build a 200sx then so be it. Not trying to make enemies.

[Baba]

Originally Posted by Andrew Strang

I understand what your saying mate and he isnt good enough at the moment but it would be nice if he ever did get good enough that he wudnt need to build a new car to compete. End of the day rules are rules and if we need to build a 200sx then so be it. Not trying to make enemies.

I dont think you are making enemies mate . You just gotta go with the rules especially seeing as you are still new to the scene just explore it a bit more in a RWD car (Not necessarily a 200SX). Good luck with whatever you do mate

[LiGhTnInG]

get a golf 4motion and convert that.

[scrutineer]

wow! this is turning into an interesting chat

I would have posted again earlier but sadly my employer seems to think i should do some work while he's paying me

As to why FWD is not allowed TBH I didn't know the full background.After having a chat with glen and reading this thread it is apparent that its a difficult subject.There does not appear to be an exact reason for the original rule (possibly its traditional)- there would be several concerns that have already been mentioned , like quality of conversions etc that would mean careful checks needed another consideration - i was looking at a FWD-RWD conversion at the autosport show that would fall foul of the rule for no spaceframes!

But I have to say that while i've been involved with scrutineering/regs etc I have not had a single question about FWD.

If we received serious enquiries we would be happy to discuss their inclusion but with a major issue like this we would also ask for feedback from some the drivers as well - but certainly a rule change for this year would be out of the question and i would guess its unlikely if we only got one person asking.

but as i said earlier , we are quite prepared to listen to ideas ....... but best not to start by calling us stupid

anyway it 's probably best to tone it down a bit - nothings changing this year - lets not all fall out over it

[cookwibble]

i would guess at the whole point of D1 in japan was to promote the modifying sales market and thats where the money comes from. converted cars would be custom for the most part and wouldnt really encourage sales in tein and such like?