Mandela

Thread in 'Other Chat' started by kam, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. kam

    kam I've touched Chris Parry

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    Terrorist or activist?

    Or both? Can you be both?

    Discuss.
     
  2. LOKISY

    LOKISY Member

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    Yea it's called a Freedom fighter :)
     
  3. Jites

    Jites Active Member

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    He passed away, pretty gutted tbh, was a legend though i dont know enough about him to comment but going by this report Nelson Mandela dies aged 95 - Telegraph he was loved and respected by many. sad times
     
  4. i11matic1795

    i11matic1795 Member

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    Both, as the saying goes, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

    He fought racism and to me that gains him my respect.
     
  5. kam

    kam I've touched Chris Parry

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    None of this please, I know everyone is sad, but I want to know peoples opinions on the way he did things.
     
  6. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    He was in to burning tyres, so are drifters, so surely everyone here loves how he went about things.
     
  7. Sam H

    Sam H Troll Dispatch

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    hahaha. 'Necklacing'
     
  8. Ollie

    Ollie LOOSE!

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    This threads a little different to the Paul Walker one, a celebrity who did some charity work which reached five pages of gushing testimony...

    In a complicated situation where oppressed people were fighting for equality - where there was as much spin and propaganda as there was violence - its not as simple a situation as being one or the other.

    Yes Mandela was linked to the communist resistance at the time (a more powerful opposition to the Racist government in those years), but this could have been as much an opportunistic alliance as anything other.

    Yes Mandela's wife was a radical ANC, anti-government communist, she was clearly involved in some heinous activities which took place whilst Mandela himself was imprisoned - they also split a few years after his release as he clearly couldn't reconcile himself with her actions.

    This issue is far far bigger and more complex than any of us are likely to understand or to have properly researched - Mandela was a more central, balanced and philanthropic person than either the Apartheid leaders or the ANC. He was intelligent enough to manoeuvre his way through both radical and violent extremes to a result that is unequivocally positive for the nation and puts it in a better more engaged 'political' position to tackle the marginalisation, racism, violence and sexual violence which has plagued the country for generations.
     
  9. kam

    kam I've touched Chris Parry

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    And co-founded this: Umkhonto we Sizwe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    That is the complicated bit.
     
    #9 kam, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  10. docwra

    docwra Active Member

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    Difficult one, I guess your opinion is going to come down to whether you feel his/the ANC's means were justified for the end they achieved. Could they have done it without violence? Maybe, I think the biggest catalyst for change was more global acceptance that racism is wrong than Nelson and his mates blowing shit up.
     
  11. kam

    kam I've touched Chris Parry

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    Totally, they were bad guys on the right side.

    I think it's an generation thing, quite a lot of "older" people I've spoken to about it aren't keen on him.
    This day and age only see's the good side, or quotes him next to pictures of Morgan Freeman.
     
  12. docwra

    docwra Active Member

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    Indeed, I remember all the Free Nelson Mandela stuff in the 90's and the dark side wasnt even touched upon, he was like some kind of saint. Since Ivbe got a bit older and read a bit more I realise it wasnt anywhere near that clear cut, but then these things generally arent.

    Can we do Che Guevera next please, Ive often wondered how many of those with posters/t shirts/tattoos of him realise he was a racist murderer who didnt believe in fair trial or fair anything for that matter ...........
     
  13. Ollie

    Ollie LOOSE!

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    Wikipedia isn't really the best source of information ever, its verbose in some instances and then addresses other issues in a single line. Which is why the sheer amount of research you'd have to do to properly answer that question is more than any of us have.

    Mandela also spent the previous decade before the MK was formed travelling the country building support for Non-violent resistance and movement against an armed government, setting up legal aid that supported black africans prosecuted under laws which criminalised there presence in 'white' areas for example. He was ONE of the individuals that figure-headed the MK, he didn't set it up all by himself and not without serious deliberation though he was probably the main protagonist in its creation - he was already a significant character in the ANC movement, it only makes sense that he was involved at the top of the next organisation. There were also significant consequences that lead to the creation of the armed wing - increased and intense crackdown on black movement across the country, the outright banning of the ANC, increased violent retaliation against peaceful ANC protest Sharpville for instance. These backlashes seriously quelled the appetite for peaceful resistance amongst the black population. People were killed for burning their identity papers. Its probably safe to say it was all hanging in the balance.

    Understandably (perhaps), there has to come a point where a peaceful revolution reached a plateau when faced with violent retaliation. Mandela advocated acts of sabotage against the government and realised that, whilst he was also attempting to avoid human injury, in advocating sabotage and armed resistance he was also inciting inter-personal violence. I don't think he could escape from that. Its also worth noting that the 'official' sabotage acts of the MK were initially against regime buildings, power stations, crops etc. Further to that, as the armed resistance gained momentum its fair to say that their leadership structure lost control over the movements and training of the forces. Mandela may have been at the top when the fuse was lit, but I struggle to see him being particularly happy with the Church Street bombings and mine campaigns.

    I know there was also involvement in military/guerilla warfare across the states of SA - I don't know a lot about the specifics of these, but again, as far as my knowledge goes it was fought against regime military forces, though as all too common in situations where humans are given power over one another, there were some seriously questionable activities perpetrated by individuals in the name of an organisation. In fact, that goes for both sides. Some of the more appalling activities of the MK were sanctioned by those surrounding Mandela, but are not linked to him personally. Perhaps he was involved, perhaps he wasn't - he was imprisoned at the time.

    You also have to consider that the MK organisation and its communist links were branded terrorists by the Apartheid Govt. and the USA - at the height of the Cold War.

    Whats significant is that, once the resistance overthrew Apartheid, Mandela became a beacon of forgiveness, peacefulness and reconciliation - I think it is that decision, when he had the backing of huge swathes of a nation, that deserves recognition. Given all the various intricacies and complications of the situation, I think that man carried an awful lot of guilt and remorse for the perhaps inevitable route that began to redress race equality. Theres a quote from before the MK was formed, I think its from one of the other members of the ANC, which is along the lines of "The non-violent method hasn't failed us - we have failed the non-violent method" which I feel goes some way to surmise the situation they all faced.
     
    #13 Ollie, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  14. Ollie

    Ollie LOOSE!

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    Definitely. There was a far bigger global picture of race equality forming.
     
  15. kam

    kam I've touched Chris Parry

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    Great post :)
     
  16. Joe-sef

    Joe-sef -Broseph-

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    More gutted about MCA then either of the for-mentioned.

    Mandela – what did for the world was great, and i generally thing he was right, I think that unlike the IRA, and other terrorist groups there arguments were a little more just and I think, the people who were in control at the time, were just as much to blame for the violence as them.

    Remember that ANC was a group way before Mandela, and they just tagged along in a revolution that was going to happen anyways. And I think that they painted Mandela and all of the people (who actually wanted what was right with the same terrorist brush, umbrella’d under ANC, the ANC as a statement were as quotes today “one of the most un-effective anti-apartheid movements” ever. I think that putting him in Jail was probably the best thing they did and by outlawing everything just made his case stronger and got the world to listen. Not really to the ANC but to all against apartheid.

    Paul – was deffo a inspiration and the lifestyle that he portrayed in them films is probable still a dream for most of us – all be it updated.

    However MCA, ive listened to music by the beastie boys everyday probably for the last 10 years. Some of there stuff was literally mind blowing. They were middlish class white guys in a black mans game, not only were they accepted but then celebrated and respected. There music was not about guns bitches and hoes or raping your girlfriends and drowning her (in general). Or self harm. Like most of the stuff from the late 90’s and was the ideal soundtrack to my skate-ish youth.

    And to top it off he was also a freedom fighter for the modern age, and when in the position to do so. Put his point across – man he even predicted 911. You have to remember that in 1998 (I think it was) there was no social media, no facebook, the internet was not really about yet as it is now, and there still even then was that much live stuff about – so putting this out live was really the only way anyone could send a message like this out in America.

    I have no sound in work but im guessing this is the correct video.



    when you lay out some of the songs they had, much like the offspring (forget there major hits that have been cheeseafied by culture (ie fight for your right))

    some of there songs that are outrageous.

    Ch-Check it out.
    Open letter to NYC ( kinda relevant to this topic)
    Pass the mic
    So what’cha want
    Sure Shot
    Body moving

    Just awesome tunes that for some random reason, unless you’re a fan you never hear in media, and probably never aired on any major level, Unless Zane low takes over radio one – he normally drops one of the above in his live sets.

    And that’s a random rant about how MCA means more the me then Paul Walker and Mandela.
     
  17. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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  18. Will.

    Will. Come at me bro

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    I've done quite a lot of reading on him and his policies from many different impartial and biased (for and against) sources and have come to my own conclusion that he was a 100% certified bellend. By his own admission, if he had control of the missiles in Cuba he would have done everything in his power to fire them off at the US. But his picture does look good on a t shirt so can he really be that bad?
     
  19. Sea Squirrel

    Sea Squirrel Jeff Mills Is Watching!

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    This. Che tees grind my fucking gears. If I wandered around with a shirt showing Hitler done in the exact same style I'd be lynched - the main difference between the two being scale and the fact the atrocities of one are widely taught in school.

    On the subject currently being discussed it's clear that, whilst definitely acting in quite a radical way early on, in later years Mandela worked in a very different way to his youth, a way which has to be widely applauded. He became the figurehead for many international race issues and helped to shape a more understanding international community. The flip side to his achievements in later life is that the laws introduced to support the black communities and workers following his election are, in short, massively racist but, as it's positive discrimination, it's not talked about in any negative way throughout the world. I think much of his life was dedicated to the incredibly positive, I also think that his achievements (and overall life actions) are viewed through very much rose-tinted spectacles by many without actually taking the time to learn about him in enough detail to formulate an opinion.
     

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