anti lag?

Thread in 'Technical Questions' started by sx-si, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. sx-si

    sx-si anti-copy parts

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    how come not many people use it?
     
  2. DoriDave

    DoriDave ~~Sore-Arse~~

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    Cos it's not really worth doing in the drift world. Not the right application for it.
     
  3. ringer

    ringer HOOooo!

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    Plus the fact that proper anti-lag costs lots of monies, and ruins engines over time.
     
  4. Lex

    Lex www.dwyb.co.uk

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    Off top of my head damien mulvey is the only competitor in Europe who has used it

    Top D1 boys seems to prefer using Nos to help them spool aswell as lots of little tricks like crazy advanced ignition to encourage pre ignition :eek:

    At the level we all drive best bet would just to to spec the correct turbo so 'lag' or boost threshold as Tydango preaches is not an issue :D
     
  5. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    Its the absolute perfect application for it :confused::confused::confused:
     
  6. yassa

    yassa Member

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    anti-lag tends to destroy turbos...
     
  7. Mr Bizzle

    Mr Bizzle In Safe Hands

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    Without getting into an argument of any sort. Can you please explain the technical reasoning behind this? My knowledge of “antilag” is limited to the basics, but from my own personal research into the system – it seems to effect reliability on a pretty substantial level. (very hard on turbo’s and engines)

    I’m also told from people who have used it extensively for rallying (again, no firsthand experience here) it generates a preposterously large amount of heat. Which on a rally/track/road car that travels at a high speed is not a massive issue, however on a drift car which is travelling sideways (not a traditional flow of air threw the ic/rad) and it’s stop start in bursts heat like that can cause large issues.

    While I can see the advantage of having a lag free engine if your paddock drifting, the reduction in component life will price it almost completely out of the market. In addition, most skilled/competent drift drivers are travelling at speed where the engine is on song and well into the power band. If it’s not, a clutch kick fixes that pretty quickly.

    To me, the advantages of an antilag system (no lag) are completely outweighed by the issues with reliability. While I can also see the advantages, if you spec your car properly in the first place and know how to drift properly I can’t see it being of that much benefit.
     
  8. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    It has an advantage in drifting is in the same way as these big capacity V8s seem to have a huge advantage over the smaller capacity cars with similar power, simple as that, as thats exactly how the car behaves.
    Anyone who has driven a car with a massive n/a engine knows how it feels to slide around with the power, its exactly that, it makes the power and torque delivery linear with throttle position, something it never is on a turbo car with even a semi-big turbo.

    Most road car ALS systems ive seen are a big wank TBH, but I dont think it takes a genius to imagine the advantage of having full boost even off throttle, meaning instant maximum torque, like nothing but a big capacity n/a car can give.
    To be honest, anyone with any turbo experience should know the massive difference in response on a car when you are at even 0 or 1 psi at light throttle compared to the response when the boost gauge is still showing vac.

    Regarding reliability, competition drifting would give ALS the easiest life by absolute miles, even compared to hard road driving, as a run lasts how long? 20-30seconds? And how long are you off throttle in that time (ie the only time ALS has any effect, its only activated below, say, 3degrees throttle)? 5-10seconds? If something fails due to ALS in that time you are doing something very wrong regardless of airflow, especially as you got at least 2min between runs.

    It creates a lot of heat, not really much worse than a flat out run, I used to do it out of interest a lot, flick on the ALS, nail it to 170ish (~7.5k in top) and let off, the EGT gauge would actually FALL until the revs were almost back to idle speed, despite the boost gauge still showing positive boost, such is the huge heat a flat out high speed run causes.
    Of course if you on and off throttle lots it will go higher and higher, but that just shows its not the instant destruction people seem to think it is.

    In rallying where a stage can be 15min long and a MUCH higher percentage of off throttle (ie ALS activated) than in drifting, and the cars are fine, most will expect their turbo to last for the whole event and more, 15+ stages.

    From personal experience I ran severe (ie 23-29psi even off throttle) ALS for 13k and nearly 3 years in a car that was only used to abuse the fuck out of, and never killed anything but electrics etc that melted due to me not heat shielding stuff correct. Seen the EGT gauge off the end of the 1600deg scale for 20-30sec at a time with no trouble.
    Had/have at least 3 mates with similar ALS and only one managed to ever kill their turbo due to it, and he was running it for maybe 8-9 years till he bought his 996 Turbo, though he didnt drive like a dick as bad as me, but I'd been in his car where he had it on for 10-15min at a time caning thru the forest a good few times.
    I mean, on the road you are only nailing a car for maybe 5min tops even if it was a nice long twisty on off throttle road, and only off throttle when the ALS is activated for maybe 1/3 of that, nothing like rallying.

    Even rallying comparisons are pointless, saying a car with ALS will break after the usual 1min on the road or drifting because it might after 3 hard long days of the WRC is like saying a Top Fuel engine wont survive the quarter mile as it would blow up running at Bonneville....

    How well other engines/turbos survive it I couldnt tell you, but from the experience of the stuff I/we used, no problem, and the effects on drivability are immense, like nothing else.

    I still have a WRC remote ALS valve and holder, I'd run it on my RX if I even know if it was possible to run on an RX, but im not sure due to the rotary design and nobody seems to have ever tried so can tell me.

    Make of that what you will, im not getting in to long protracted arguments with people with no first hand experience of things, but this is reality and years of experience of running it, not theory, rumour, and second hand info, which is 99% of internet anti lag use info.

    Amen
     
    #8 Stavros, Dec 11, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2009
  9. bigrichy

    bigrichy Team Beard

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    :wack: Thank fuck for that, I thought you were gonna go off on one there lol:smash:
     
  10. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    Nah, jus explained as much as I know of it from first hand experience, and if anyone wants to talk shit like usual, crack on, 90% of the tuning info on the net is bollocks anyhow, may as well have some more, lol
     
  11. initial_j

    initial_j Made guy

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    dont you have to run uber spec turbo to use antilag? or is that a myth? i was pretty sure it would kill something like a 28 pretty quick?
     
  12. itsVTC

    itsVTC driftage

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    not really
    look at wrc cars
    300hp with antilag
     
  13. initial_j

    initial_j Made guy

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    but arnt they like titanuim?
     
  14. Sea Squirrel

    Sea Squirrel Jeff Mills Is Watching!

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    Pretty much exactly what I was about to ask actually. Surely, also, when you're talking in terms of a t28r, or even a 2871r, you're not really going to see so much of an advantage as to make it worthwhile compared to, say, a 3071r (sr20 application here).

    For example, I get full boost by 3400ish on my car. How much difference would there actually be on a 320bhp/equivelant torque application that's spooling that early? I know there'll be a more instant application of the power but, in terms of driveability mid drift, how much difference do you think that'd actually make Stav? Is it simply not worth running it until circa 400bhp on a much larger turbo?

    If it is worth running then I guess the next logical question is: where sells 'PROPER' ALS and how much does it cost?
     
  15. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    Its nothing to do with spooling a turbo early. My old turbo would hit 2bar by 3500rpm without the ALS activated. Its done for throttle response in the boost threshold. Its instant maximum torque, WRC cars have full boost from low revs regardless of the ALS.
    Id almost go as far as to say it has not much effect on the boost threshold.

    Easiest way to describe it is it feels like an 8litre n/a car rather than a 2litre turbo car. It made my Cossie have the instant grunt of my Brothers 7.5litre XB Falcon.

    Even the quickest spooling turbo, even a stock S14a T28, would drive hugely different with it. Not something you can really image though, need to experience, unfortunately thats not so easy.
     
  16. Lex

    Lex www.dwyb.co.uk

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    Dude, at the level we all drive at it really is not worth the investment IMHO

    The Castrol RB30 HCR32 remains one of the bestest drift cars ive ever diffed - it did not have anti lag, if it did have anti lag - without have ever driven an ALS drift car and happily make the bold statement that if i did have ALS it would not be THAT much better

    Text book example of people thinking they need modz to mask their lack of experience/skill :p

    Those crazy japs have been diffing on those twisty mouniatin roads for yrs without ALS why the fuck should we need it to so skids on the limited tracks we do have ?

    ALS for amatuer/ learner drifter = waste of monies, spunk it on tyres birds and cake instead :nod:

    ALS for top level competitor = expensive clutch kick ( happy to be proved wrong) :o

    The fact that it is not widely used in the US or Oz where budgets far exceed levels here should be a big clue

    :dw:
     
  17. RyanH

    RyanH Lacks skills

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    Someone I know is apparently getting anti-lag which is built into the ECU (Omex management). It uses an idle bypass valve or something? :confused:

    I always thought anti lag involved the use of some injector-type thing bolted onto the turbo which injected fuel to keep the blades spinning?

    What's this ECU based stuff like? Does it even work? My (limited) knowledge of ECUs suggests that it'll either not work, or just not be worth having!
     
  18. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    IMO this whole thread is going to be pure opinion with nobody having any experience of ALS on drift cars, and almost none of us having real experience of it full stop, making the thread totally pointless.
    TBH I think a massive V8 is a more viable option for the exact same effect in a drift car, but its deffo nothing like a clutch kick.
    Either way, only worth worrying about at a high level, not just dicking about, unless you REALLY want it for whatever reason.

    Ryan- When switched on and throttle position is less than 5deg or so, ign is knocked back 30deg or so, fuelling is increased loads, and throttle bypass valve opens. Fuel is ignited with exhaust valves open, spinning the turbo like a jet engine does. Compressed air goes thru the bypass valve, creating boost and fueling the fire for the jet engine.
    Depends how well its done you can have full boost at 0% throttle slowing in to a corner.
    But 99% of road cars ive seen with ALS just pop and bang and do fuck all real good as they set to mild (ie not much retard or fuel) and use piss small bypass valves, which is the main thing.
     
    #18 Stavros, Dec 11, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2009
  19. Lex

    Lex www.dwyb.co.uk

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    but satv the whole point of the internetz is that we can share ideas , express our opnions and look at clunge :D

    we all know that fuck all of the net is true so people decide to pick and choose the bits that they feel are relevant to them

    im going spout my mantra as it pains me that people think there could be a shortcut

    Mod the driver, not the car. :smash:
     
  20. Mr Bizzle

    Mr Bizzle In Safe Hands

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    Interesting stuff,
    If you think of yourself drifting a track like Donnington or Castle Coombe, both of which are extremely quick courses that involve a lot of on/off throttle exchange (especially if you manji the straights) how do you think it would fair?

    Also, if people like you and I can happily link the above tracks without any issue (and without using ALS) but retain the reliability of a traditional setup. What can ALS really bring to the table?
     

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