Best ENGINE Thread - New/Old / Big/Small / Inline/V config - Discuss!

Thread in 'Technical Questions' started by dale_b, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. dale_b

    dale_b #DriftFactory

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    Yo dudes..

    I want to talk about Engines..

    JZ's, RB's, SR's, etc are running out and will soon be pricing themselves out the market.. Not to mention the fact they are all old and falling to bits now, and technology has come leaps and bounds since then..

    So, what's going to be the next bandwagon to jump on?

    Some of you will know that I'm a JZ fanboy, I love them, but surely there's better engines out there now!?

    You our see people like Aasbo using a new 2AR-FE 4 banger, making mental power, but suffering reliability issues..

    Theres a lot to be said for the LS engines, although I can't quite see them taking off over here like they have in the US.. I'm not a fan of the LS engines, it's old technology, just made bigger and slightly more efficient..

    Theres also some pretty well built E46 M3 engines with turbos making good reliable power.. Jack Shanahans for example..

    VR38 is undeniably one of the best engines to be released of late, lot of money though..

    Lexus/Toyota V8's are crap, highly strung already..


    I'm looking more towards the newer Audi V6/V8/V10's(or the new inline 5cyl), Merc AMG V8's, BMW E92 V8's and 335i engines, etc.. These engines are all great as they are, and even better with turbos..

    New technology, better efficiency, more tuning potential..

    Lets try and keep this to production engines that you're likey to get at breakers yards and ebay etc..
    Dont let factory transmissions sway your opinion, it's easy enough to make any box fit any engine..

    I want to hear about tuning options too..

    Whats your thoughts?
     
  2. Ruishy1

    Ruishy1 Active Member

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    #2 Ruishy1, Jun 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  3. akinadan79

    akinadan79 Active Member

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    I don't know about qualifying as a 'best' engine but in my opinion I reckon there's a future for VG30DETT's. There are plenty to be had for stupidly cheap money these days. Granted the VG needs to be stripped of their excess vac and water hoses and it's a fact of life that inside an engine bay they are a bitch to work on however they are easily pulled. So a reliable 300bhp for a couple of hundred quid a pop will appeal to the drift world sooner or later I'm sure.
     
  4. Ruishy1

    Ruishy1 Active Member

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    I don't think I woulg agree with the VG engine even though I love it.
    They are getting on now and heat cycling has caused pretty much all of the electrical plugs to break down, so if you buy one you really need to spend 6-700 quid getting all the electrics done otherwise your going to have alot of problems. Not to mention the years of abuse on most.
     
  5. akinadan79

    akinadan79 Active Member

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    I agree with you, the connectors are like brittle toffee (mines a '95 TT import and the injector connectors and coilpack connectors now need replacing as they just crumbled after I pulled the engine) though is that not the same with most 20 year Nissans?

    For guys who are happy to work on their own engines I reckon the VG is a viable cost effective option but if you need to employ a mechanic/garage to carry out the work on your behalf then you'd best start putting your kidneys on ebay as yes, it would cost a bomb.

    I don't know about the years of abuse, I suppose it all depends on the history as per most SR's and JZ's
     
  6. docwra

    docwra Active Member

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    N54 - forged as standard and can take 500+hp on standard turbos without being opened. Peak torque comes in well before 3K and stays there right to the redline, and peak power is there for a good long while as well, see below:

    I dont profess to know much about any other newly developed engine, Im sure some of the most recent V8's are a bit special but Im still amazed that so few people know about the N54 and what its capable of, there has to be a few more popping up in the near future in drifting for sure.
     
  7. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    Not a fan, and no good, are two different things. And its not size, as they aren't bigger. But they're a lot more than slightly more efficient.
    1000bhp+ from stock internals 4.8ltr truck engines, 1500bhp+ from stock exhaust manifolds, etc etc. Fan or no fan, they're better than 99% of engines out there.

    LOL.

    Find me another production engine that, with decent internals (stock crank) can do 300bhp per litre for 10k+ miles, inc hundreds of 8sec quarter mile passes, and then be dismantled and have no wear at all on the bearings or cylinders. In fact look like a brand new engine.

    Aside from a 1UZ that is, as it was designed from the outset to be a race engine capable of massive power and massive revs for long periods.



    Regarding other engines, there's millions. Fact is, 99% of people have never taken them to the limit so have no idea how good they are.

    VG30 engines are one of the most successful Nissan race engines ever, especially in 12 valve form, and in 1989 a 300ZX did 260mph too. Do people bother with them? Do they fuck.

    VERY few engines that can't happily do 250bhp per litre and be decent drivable and reliable if BUILT RIGHT. But do many people know how? Or ever take any engine even that far? No, so it's pointless worrying about if an engine can do 500bhp per litre, as nobody does it, just dreams about it.

    VERY few factory turbocharged engines can't do 175-200bhp per litre on stock internals with bolt on bits. And as 99% of new engines are now turbo from the factory, the future is good for tuning.

    Tons of Merc engines are retardedly strong, far stronger, far more tuneable, far cheaper, than 99% of engines people use, but they still don't use them.
    Some Merc engines you can pick up for fuck all are the same basic engine used in legendary Group C LeMans cars, Pagani Zondas, all sorts, don't mean people will use them.

    N54 tuning will be massive. No saying that engine is that good (500bhp on stock internals is no big deal, 167bhp per litre, like a 330bhp 2ltr engine, which any 2ltr turbo can do all day long), until people are pushing the limits it would be retarded to wank off about how amazing they are, but tuning will be massive as the base for easy power from stock parts are there.
    You can say the same about every single turbocharged engine of a decent capacity to be fair.

    Tuning in the UK is nothing to do with what's best, it's what engine has the most and cheapest and easily got amount of bolt on tat to make it faster. That's what makes it popular, not how good stuff is.
    SR20s, one of the least remarkable 2ltr 4cyl turbos of modern times, but one of the most popular as any old spastic can close their eyes, buy a pile of bits, and it be a fairly powerful car.
     
    #7 Stavros, Jun 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  8. Bagpuss

    Bagpuss Member

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    Personally I think the 1UZ will take off simply due to the price, you can pick up a decent engine for under £400 all day and that gets you 260bhp and 270lbft. There are a ton of gearbox adapters readily available, and you can even boost it up to 8psi on the stock ECU for bigger power.

    If you were serious about making a high power V8 you'd go with an LS of course, but for cheap reliable power the 1UZ ticks the boxes.
     
  9. dale_b

    dale_b #DriftFactory

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    That's a damn fine engine for the money.. Pretty big and bulky, but guess it's an Alu block so probably won't weigh much any more than an RB or JZ.. My new car is a 1series coupe, that engine would be a tight squeeze..lol


    This is the kind of thing I'm thinking when I say 'newer technology'.. In stock form and mapped etc they're great.. I can see a lot of potential with these. There probably isn't much available yet for things like Fuel Injectors(Direct Injection), or aftermarket manifolds, etc, but the stuff will come when the market gets there..
    I'll certainly be considering one of these for my next lump..:thumbs:
    And to be fair, you could take a pretty much stock 335i and make a damn fine skid car.. Give it 2-3yrs and half the S/R-bodies that get written off will be replaced with cars like 335i, E46 M3's, and probably 350z's etc, but mainly BMW's, there's not many other decent RWD cars out the packet for £5k..


    Yeah they might be an ok engine, but they are hard to work on and fill whatever bay you put it in.. They are old and inefficient, if I'm to use an engine from the 90's it'd be a JZ, nothing of the era is as good in my opinion.
    My landlord has a customer with a Fairlady racecar making around 700hp running on race gas, it's done a couple of seasons without any major engine problems, seems pretty good to be fair..


    Yep, I'm not a fan, but like you say they aren't bad.. I don't know what left the nasty taste in my mouth with them, maybe it's the oil starvation issues without a dry sump, could be the lazy noise, or maybe it's the primitive way they're made, have you been inside one? They ain't pretty, seems they started with a chunk of Alu with 8 big holes, then everything after that is an after thought..
    I can't deny they work, but Hemi's/Pushrods/1 Cam is old technology..



    I wasn't refering to UZ's with my comment on Lexus/Toyota V8's being highly strung, I was refering to the newer ones from the IS-F etc.. 2UR etc
    I agree that the UZ can be good when you bin just about everything other than the tall block, but they arnt a patch on new engines.. Despite being a derivative from a race engine 20yrs ago, the advances in technology when it comes to designing and producing engine means things get better.. With the UZ it's a case of 'they don't make things like they used to'.. They are well made, as are the JZ's.. But I don't want to be stuck in the past with +20yr old engines..



    Which ones?
    I like the noise of the C63 engine, with a couple of turbos.. Seen a few examples of turbo'd ones making pretty strong power..


    Yep agreed, but SR's fetch a premium everyday now, not just 3 days before race wars.. At the rate it's going, give it 2yrs and they'll be £3k.. Same for GTE JZ's..


    I don't think UZ's will ever take off like you think.. As above, I know they're good, but most people that want a big power V8 buy an LS, and most people that want a ~300hp V8 buy a bmw lump..
    Like Stav said, theres plenty of Merc V8s with 4-500hp stock, for less than building a 500hp UZ..
     
  10. docwra

    docwra Active Member

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    I see what youre saying but theres a big difference between making 300hp and making 500hp regardless of how big the lump is, an N54 is also making mad torque at next to no revs which cant be said for a JZ or SR, for example, even a 4G. At 430hp I can still get 30 mpg on a run too and Im paying the lower road tax rate.

    Whats got me is the cost of doing anything to it though, sure, they arent cheap to buy in the first place but a couple of grand makes a lot of difference, apparently the biggest power N54 @ 829 WHP had an injector system, turbo kit, management ......... and thats it. Its also holding 700+hp and torque from 5K through to redline and 800 lb/ft from 5.5K to redline, thats insane.

    DISCLAIMER: I do not profess to be an expert on engines, Ive just been impressed with what Ive experienced and found with the N54 - its very likely there is bigger and better out there but not for the same outlay.
     
    #10 docwra, Jun 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
  11. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    What people don't seem to grasp, with all this "Oh, that engine is X amount of years old, it's old technology" thing is bollocks to be fair.

    Aside from direct injection, and to a much lesser extent variable valve timing, there is fucking fuck all in new engines that will give you any big tuning advantage over older ones. And while it's an advantage, it's also a disadvantage as most people don't know what the fuck to do with these parts, and there's less parts available.

    All this "oh it produces big torque from no revs" is very little to do with it being new, you could make an older engine do the same if you built it to a similar spec.

    People obsess over something being newer tech, without having an actual clue what good it's gonna do them. And the reality is, not much.

    If you wanted to, you could build a 2JZ (or countless others), that could do 900bhp and maybe 1000lbft with full boost at pretty much any rpm. Just like 600bhp and 700lbft+ from a 2ltr with instaboost everywhere is, and has been for probably a decade, the norm in top level Rallycross.
    Or a 1200bhp 1400lbft 1UZ...

    People need to ignore all this "ooh the best engine, the best technology" and just build a good engine, rather than some cobbled together shit decided upon by copying other ones they seen on the internet.
     
  12. docwra

    docwra Active Member

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    But what would it cost and how durable would it be? You certainly didnt see that kind of thing on nigh on stock engines 10 years ago.

    And OK, its not "new technology" but stuff like precision CNC machining, CAS and CFD and better ECU tech have definitely become more accessible even in the last 10 years, the principle is the same but the tech is allowing the man on the street to get the best out of it without being affiliated with an F1 team.
     
  13. boarder_911

    boarder_911 Member

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    You all hopefully realize that nothing in brought into the market by OEMs is done for technological advance?

    Everything is driven by 2 things and eventually 1 thing.

    Market demand and legislation!
    Thus... Money.

    Every IC engine is nothing more than a glorified air pump.
    as long as the internal parts are designed and produced to adequate tolerances (Application dependent) there's no limit to what an engine can do.

    As for the boost levels at low RPMs... Turbo sizing and dual VVTi makes heaps of difference in that.

    Engine control strategies are insanely complex these days, for more so than aftermarket ecus
    Simply because of emissions targets. You want more torque out of your engine? Sure, just don't look at emissions, they will fail without a doubt.
     
  14. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    Cheaper and as strong if not stronger than using a newer and far less proven engine, which is the point of this thread.
    Esp as these days where every last ounce matters to the OEM, engines/blocks are not built overly strong on the whole.

    Very little of that implemented by the OEM has any relevance at all on tuned engines once getting beyond the basic levels.
     
    #14 Stavros, Jun 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
  15. Matty S

    Matty S Member

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    lets be honest, no matter how unreliable, impractical, un-fuel economic, under powered, oil thirsty they are, we all gotta have big love for rotarys!!!! weather it be a boggo 13b or some mad quad rotor twin turbo Frankenstein build. i want one just for the sound!!!
     
  16. Stavros

    Stavros Active Member

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    TBF, you accidentally bring up a good point.

    The reality is, from a pure performance/racing point of view, they're one of the most economical, powerful, reliable, engines for their size (Hence why they banned from most forms of racing, esp LeMans), but have a reputation for otherwise which is the main factor why things like JZs and SRs and RBs are loved here- People have no clue on the whole, even the 'experts' how to tune them properly in the UK, but do JZ/SR/RB.

    An engine is only as good as who specced it, hence why the 'best' engines aren't usually the ones tuned. The ones tuned are the ones the people understand the most.
     
  17. Bagpuss

    Bagpuss Member

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    I've only known two people who owned RX7's and both cars blew up running near stock power. Based on this I'd shy away from owning a car with one in, however cool they are.

    For me it's all about cheap reliable power, why bother tuning something to within an inch of it's safe limits if you can run a stock engine, on stock management, and achieve the same figures? It's the main reason why my 86 has a 1UZ in it, it was cheaper to do the swap than tune the 4AGE to that power, and is ten times as reliable as a 4AGE pushed to those levels.
     
  18. orange_beastie

    orange_beastie Pickup driftin

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    I think they way forward for big reliable power is to go diesel. If you see what they make on some twin turbo v8s or turboed straight 8/6/4 engines then the potential is massive.
     
  19. orange_beastie

    orange_beastie Pickup driftin

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  20. Geldy

    Geldy the pain train woowo

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    this makes me laugh, why would you change the technology if it works? simple push rods, change teh cam in intake in a ls2 you see over 500bhp, whats not to like about that a safe engine that runs everytime no problems what so ever. spend the same amount you would on a turbo 6 pot or high strung euro v8 on a LS you will easy see well over 800 out the ls
     

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