Suspension Settings??

Thread in 'Technical Questions' started by Miro, Aug 27, 2004.

  1. Miro

    Miro Member

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    Welcome to Suspension Tech Talk! :)
    My First thread! Lets get right to business. What suspension setups does everyone have on here? Now I know that a car can be drifted standard, but the angles of the drift and the pre-setup (drifting tecniques) for drift require certain mods in order to be carried out successfully (at times).
    I'm basically wondering about modlists, ride height, camber angles, shock compression settings (i.e. 7F 5R), ARB settings if applicable, Alloys (Width and Diameter), Tires, Brake Balance? If possible could everyone write a quick word or two which mods helped them out the most?
    A lot of questions to be answered. I'll start first.

    S13 K reg:
    Chassis Dynamics springs (35mm drop)
    Whiteline ARB's (front and rear)
    Brembo 10 Groove discs (front)
    EBC 10 Groove discs (rear)
    Goodrich Stainless steel brakelines
    Pinapple rings (all round performance setting)

    Note: Didnt' start drifting until I actually installed all my mods, so I can't compare before and after :( But I'd say that the ARB's have helped out the most in reducing bodyroll, and stabilizing the car during cornering. Steve C took me out for a test run after the installation.. :D :D :D :D :D :D And that's basically my response after a bit of B road Bashing!

    The Whiteline ARB's are adjusted middle setting for the front, and hard setting for the rear. I haven't tampered with these settings as they seem to work well for side (e-brake) drifting. I wish I had enough money for some better alloys and front tires, cause I get way to much understeer in order to be able to successfully complete feints. (running semi-slick stock tires (195/60/15) :wack: ) not much thread left I'm afraid.

    Brake balance is a bit screwed up aswell since I have EBC greenstuff up front and EBC blackstuff on the rear. I'm looking to upgrade the rears with pagid pads for the future. Does anyone know if its better to have the ABS system on, or off for brake drifts? I'd imagine a fair bit of under when overspeeding into the corner (with ABS off), but I guess this is all relative to angle of entering the corner and brake balance. With this in mind would it be wise to get some better brake calipers for the rears??

    My camber angles need adjusting badly, since my front tires have got a lot of inner wear. But I won't be able to do anything until I get my coilovers fitted :(

    The coilovers are going to be the Apex group buy ones. I'm thinking 7F 8R, but I'm not a 100% sure on the settings yet.
    Also thinking of a cusco strut brace up front and possibly back. But I'm worried that with the ARB's and coilovers that there will be a fair bit of understeer because of the stiffness of the front chassis.

    Now I'm no expert by any means, so PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong on any of tuning conceptions :)
    -Milosz :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
    Happy Drifting!
     
  2. iKst

    iKst Member

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    I have 35mm apex lowering springs with standard shocks. This is absolutly no drift setup, way too soft.

    Wheels are 7,5J x 16" and i usualy use 205/55/16 tyres. ATM im using 205/45/16 tyres and wheels loot too small, but i can brake the traction easier than with bigger tyres.

    ARBs are standard, and pain in the ass. This is my next mod.

    Brakes are standard as well (prefacelift ones) with Pagid fast road pads all around. They could be better for fast road and track driving, but they work well enough for drifting.

    Other than that my suspension is standard, but it is next on my list of mods. I know these are not suspension parts, but i have also fitted some bucket seats and momo 350mm steering wheel. It helps alot when drifitng.
     
  3. Miro

    Miro Member

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    By upgrading the steering wheel, is the steering response way better? I remember the steering in my ol Prelude with a Momo Clubman 4 seemed tighter than any other car I've driven(except for a supercharged S2 Elise :D ). Wonder if those Nismo steering bushes help?? hmm....
     
    #3 Miro, Aug 29, 2004
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2004
  4. SteveC200

    SteveC200 9.17 BtG. Too slow.

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    You can turn the steering faster with a smallerwheel.

    When you get back to Colchester I'll let you have a little drive of mine. You wont believe how different the steering is compared with stock. Smaller wheel, poly lower bushes, HKS top mounts, pillowball tension rods and some thing I recommend highly, if you can get hold of one, is a stainless steel steering column bush.
     
  5. Miro

    Miro Member

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    Looking forward to the 'revelational' experience :nod:
     
  6. FSR

    FSR Member

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    Settings is of course very much based on personal preference, but here's some rules of thumb, so to speak.

    Springs and dampers
    Springs and dampers should be harder than a street setup, but not as hard as a racing setup. As drifting is performed on street tires, the amount of grip is quite low, and suspension that is made to work with slick tires would be too hard. For lighter cars such as the AE86 the usual springrates are F:8/R:6 but Ueo runs F:10/R:8, so I guess you could go stiffer if the rest of the car is stiff enough. For a heavier car like a Skyline I'd say about F:11/R:10 or something. Nomura runs the opposite though...

    Now the strange thing is that all the RX-7's in D1 run a lot stiffer springs than the Toyota's and Nissan's. Imamura's got 16kg all round on his car. I have no idea why though....

    As for dampers, they obviously need to match the springs. Short strokes with quite hard rebound is usually good for drifting.

    Bushings, rods and steering mods
    The important thing here is to remember to change all the bushings, not just the easy ones. If you stiffen up somewhere, the movements will just be transferred to the other bushings. So combining stock bushings with harder ones is usually not a good idea, as it will increase the load on your allready stressed out stock bushings. Aftermarket stuff is nice, but don't underestimate new stock bushings...

    Same goes with the rods really. Don't change one at the time. Save up and change all the important ones at once. If you don't, you'll just put more stress on the old ones and risk a breakdown.

    Steering mods are great! There are several ways to increase the steering angle. Don't worry to much about the ratio of the rack and quick steering. With the amount of caster you should run, the steering wheel will spin itself while drifting. You just have to grab it at the right time :D

    The easiest way to improve steering angle is by replacing or modifying the inner tie rods. On most japanese cars they have bushes that limit the travel of the rack. By fitting a pair of aftermarket tie rods from JIC or similar will give you more travel. On my AE86 a 1/2" on each side gave me enough angle to rub the inner arches (note to self: get smaller wheels :D).

    Another way is to shorten the steering knuckles a little. This will also give you quicker steering.

    Alignment
    As in every other motorsport, alignment is very important. In drifting you would like a car that turns well, and is easy to control. Usually a drift car has quite a lot of camber, but not as much as a race car. About 3 degrees up front and 2 degrees at the back is a nice place to start. Basically the rule of thumb is that more camber gives you more mid-corner grip. Up to a certain point of course...

    As for caster I guess that's very individual, but if you have a way to adjust it, then start with the factory settings and increase the angle until you like how the car feels. A lot of caster makes the steering damn heavy, but i straightens out like dream.

    Toe makes a lot of difference. For a sharp turn-in, go toe-out up front! Don't be afraid to experiment. I run almost 20mm toe-out and like it. It also gives you better steering angle on the outside wheel ;)

    At the rear I'd say neutral or slighly toe-in. Toe-out will be to much and the car will be unstable. Not good...

    Tires
    Don't run shitty tires!!! It's a common mistake, but just don't do it. Old and hard tires is very unpredictable and will just make it harder. They're ok if you're a beginner, and still practise donuts and e-brake turns, but once you're on the track you should go for a decent sport tire. It does not have to be expensive, just not old and crappy. The best tire I've driven on so far is a cheap performance tire called Federal. Quite hard, but very controllable and durable, even when smoking hot. Rule of thumb: You're better off with a cheap new tire than an old expensive tire. Just stay away from re-cycled tires...

    This will do for now. I might add stuff if I come up with something... :)
     
  7. Pulsatingstar

    Pulsatingstar -NIGHTSPIRIT FAMILY-

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    Id like to know more about this really. Ive got 9 and 7 I think (not 100% sure), and no-one believes me because its a bit soft still.

    Lee
     
  8. PhilMorrison

    PhilMorrison WholeLifeCrisis
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    The difference between the same spring rates on different cars will depend on the position, length, and angle of suspension arms, it's about leverage...
     
  9. Pulsatingstar

    Pulsatingstar -NIGHTSPIRIT FAMILY-

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    Did it feel soft when you drove it Phil? Given no constraints would you have chosen to have it stiffer :wack:
     
  10. PhilMorrison

    PhilMorrison WholeLifeCrisis
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    I don't really know dude, your rear tyres were to wide, so it squatted a tiny bit to much, I think it would probably be perfect to learn in if you sorted out the too much grip issue :)..

    P.S. Fredrick that is a very very nice write up, do you mind if we use parts of it on the main site when up? :)
     
  11. Pulsatingstar

    Pulsatingstar -NIGHTSPIRIT FAMILY-

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    Selling it should do the trick :p Going to move onto something more hardcore now anyway.

    Just hope to find a new car in time to get to a few events.
     
  12. FSR

    FSR Member

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    Sure... Feel free to edit it too. I'm no expert, and I guess there are people here who can add a lot. How about keeping this thread tidy and focus on write up's and q&a. That way it can be a great resource as well as a good basis for an article on the main site...
     
  13. FSR

    FSR Member

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    Yeah, that's probably it. The suspension arms on the FD is quite long I think...
     
  14. Mr Doricar

    Mr Doricar JDM Loose yo

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    Good advice Fredrik

    I'm glad you're liking 20mm toe out. I was also planning on running that much. I have an old video of Ueo's black Trueno that shows all their suspension settings. Ueo was 20mm out and Immamura was 30mm out.

    If you have time could you tell me what suspension parts your car has? I'd be very interested to hear if you have adjustable anti-roll bars? I've ordered some parts for my car (rose jointed adj. rear links and panhard rod, RCA's, new rear dampers) but as yet I have no anti-roll bars or front dampers.

    Seeing as your car is near perfect :) I'd like to know what parts you run. Also do you run 8k front? How is that for the road? Sounds very stiff. Pazza's best mate Takahashi reckons the best rates for a 86 are 6K F/R.

    Unfortunately my experience with suspension setup is in FF race cars so I'm not going to offer any advice as I've never played with setup's on my road cars. I think it's the one thing that seperates our cars from the Japanese cars. There seems to be too much emphasis on "I've fitted Tein's, my car is setup now".

    Lets experiment!!!
     
  15. Mr Doricar

    Mr Doricar JDM Loose yo

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    Are you talking about spring rates here? If so stiffer rear than front isn't a good idea :wack:

    Also, here's some info that might interest y'all

    http://www.stockcarproducts.com/pstech9.htm
     
  16. FSR

    FSR Member

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    Oh, my car is far from perfect! I still have the long stroke gravel dampers all compressed on F:10kg/R:9 kg springs. Bouncy as hell. The rest of the settings are still as they where when I bought it. Nothing fancy really. The rollbars look stock, and so does the whole front suspension. Old stock bushings everywhere :( The only thing that has been upgraded is the rear axle mount. All the rods there have balljoints and stuff. It seems as though the builder of the car was more worried about reliability than handling, and as it was meant to race on gravel, stiffer rollbars wouldn't do much good.

    So I have a lot of work to do. I don't even know my camber/caster settings...
     
  17. Miro

    Miro Member

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    Thanks 2 everyone for all the help so far!

    Yes I was referring to the spring rates. I've revised my settings a bit further now. 7kg/mm (F) and 6kg/mm (R). Usually people seem to go for 7 F 5R But this is for general grip driving surely?? So I've revised my settings to go a bit harder than that in the back so its set up for a bit of oversteer from the start. Any thoughts?

    How is toe adjusted? When adjusting toe settings, won't it make the car more unstable in a straight line because of the funny angles of the wheels?

    -Milo
     
  18. PhilMorrison

    PhilMorrison WholeLifeCrisis
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    yes, you don't want to be driving with 20mm toe out on the street ;)
     
  19. Mr Doricar

    Mr Doricar JDM Loose yo

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    20mm isn't too bad!

    You cant really have the best of both worlds. It's either a drift car or a road car! You'll go through tires quickly too, but it'll be worth it. Maybe someone should experiment with parallel steering like the grass track boys do! :wack:
     
    #19 Mr Doricar, Sep 2, 2004
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2004
  20. Bon Bon

    Bon Bon It'll be fine

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    Well with toe out it should have some stability anyway.

    0 toe should, in theory, be a bitch, toe in stable, toe out less stable but still driveable.

    You guys and your "measurements"...pah! I remember when I set my toe, just spent an afternoon under the car, driving it a bit, adjusting a bit, driving a bit, and so on... :wack:
     

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